If you truly love your partner, does a ring and a ceremony really do anything?
I know there are certain legal situations where an official marriage changes who has certain rights, but aren’t those same rights available if you make other legally-official decisions E.G. a will or trusts, etc?
I’m generally curious why people get married beyond the “because I love them” when it costs so much money.
It gives us certain rights and protections, tax benefits, etc. Hospital visitations, legal stuff, the ability to get in your own queue for immigration, and it’s a sign to each other that you both are committed to each other for the long haul. It’s a sign of trust.
As an example, medical care/inheritance rights are one.
Back before the days of gay marriage, there were no end of horror stories of LGBT people whose partners were dying from HIV, and were forbidden from seeing their dying partners, or for estranged family to swoop in and kick the “friend” out, preventing them from seeing their partner, often taking everything that belonged to the deceased in the process.
A relatively famous art piece has a similar story, where Boskovich’s boyfriend’s family swept in and took everything from their shared apartment after he died, effectively erasing their relationship in the process. All that was left was an electric fan.
I’m getting married this summer, for my girlfriend and I it is purely practical. We own a house together, but because of how the laws are here in Denmark my mom would inherit my 50% instead of it going to my future wife in case I die. We could pay a lawyer to make a document that’ll du the same, but it’ll cost the same as the party we’re throwing instead.
People have already pointed out the legal and financial aspects. But I also want to address the philosophical aspect of your question, which I think you had in mind. And I think the answer I would give you is this one:
Marriage has the meaning that you assign to it.
I strongly believe that if we got rid of any legal and financial benefits of marriage, even if we made it explicitly illegal, there would still be a bunch (or even a lot) of people who would get married.
I would compare it to a house fire. If my house was burning (and there were no living beings in it) and I could save 5 things, what would I save? What would you save? I would take, for example, my favorite soft toy from when I was a kid, and my old box filled with diaries. Is this worth any money? No. Does it have any value? To me, it does. To you, it doesn’t. Maybe you are a very rational person that isn’t attached to anything (or to nothing material) and you would indeed make the smartest choices, saving your passport and documents and money. Maybe you would save a small gift that someone important has given you. Maybe you would save the first guitar you ever bought. You save whatever has value and meaning to you. And these things have solely the meaning and value that you have attached to it.
Likewise, people have different value and meaning attached to marriage. If you look at it from a rational, logical side - it has its legal and financial perks and benefits and if they weren’t there, getting married would make no sense. But things don’t have to make sense. The meaning we assign to rituals, things, concepts, aren’t necessarily rational. They are, however, deeply personal.
So, as a side note, please beware of ridiculing people for their views on marriage or weddings, just like you wouldn’t want to ridicule or belittle someone for other things that mean a lot to them. Always sharing the last piece of bread. Always giving a coin to a homeless person. Having a breakfast for 30 minutes every morning. A good night kiss on the nose from their partner. Drawing a dick in the first snow of the winter. Some things mean a lot to people even if they do not rationally make sense.
In the case of marriage, of course, some of the meaning comes from culture, history, and tradition. Marriage might have had different purposes than it has now, and surely the origins weren’t that romantic. (Not saying, however, that marriage has to be romantic.) But it is there. It is important to some people simply because they have, at some point in their life, decided it is important for some reasons, rational or irrational, social, cultural, and hopefully personal too. To them, it makes sense, it has meaning, it has value. And whatever marriage or a wedding ceremony mean - you decide.
So the question you should be asking is not whether or not you should get married, it is what marriage means to you. Does it have any benefit or value in your eyes? Are the legal benefits enough for you to get married? What is your stance on divorce? Do you feel like you would get “closer together” with your partner? Would you feel it would make things harder to separate? There are a ton on questions like these that you can ask yourself, I hope you get the jist. There are not right or wrong answers. The only thing that is important is that the meaning you assign to marriage is (about) the same as the meaning your partner assigns to marriage. You can both not care about a spiritual meaning, but just get married for the benefits. You can both be a type of “whatever happens, we don’t get divorced, til death do us part”. You can be “we’ll keep reevaluating whether we still belong together”. You can also be “we get married because we have children and this is practical”. Or “we get married because I am hot and you are rich and when one of us loses their asset we split”. Or “we just want a fancy huge ass party to show our love in this very moment and celebrate it with our friends and whatever comes afterwards is secondary”. It doesn’t matter what your view is, it matters that you guys agree.
Where I live marriage is pretty close to being entirely symbolic. Not entirely, of course. It gives some legal rights concerning inheritance and rights if one partner becomes sick and you need power of attorney, but for a couple of 20-somethings nothing that registered cohabitation wouldn’t also provide.
People still get married. It’s a symbolic gesture, it means something to the couple and to society as a symbol of love and mutual commitment. It is just an expected step somewhere along the line.
The point, as you mention, is whatever you want the point of marriage to be.
My partner and I are similar to you. We couldn’t care less. I proposed to her, she said yes, we’re happy with the way things are, nothing needed to change.
However. Legally speaking, when you get married, you are considered as a single legal entity in many things including court/law enforcement/taxes.
A person cannot be compelled to bear witness to their partners actions in court, in the USA, that’s the fifth amendment, in Canada, it’s section 11© of the charter of rights and freedoms. The basic concept being that you have the right to remain silent (and not incriminate yourself).
While I don’t plan on doing any crime or anything… That’s a nice perk.
Also, she hates doing her taxes, so when we’re married, I can do taxes for both of us.
There’s very few perks here and bluntly, it’s not worth the cost…
We’re going to elope and just throw a “reception” (party) afterwards.
As one who eloped and had a reception party, this this is the way. We just celebrated 18 years.
We wanted to do it this year on our anniversary, which was about a month ago now, but there was too much going on financially that even throwing a modest party with the budget constraints was going to create problems. We both had job disruptions in the last months of 2024, and things have just been a bit to hard financially to really bother.
We’re starting to save for next year already. Planning shall begin soon.
Jus an fyi, getting married costs basically nothing unless you have a wedding. It literally costs like $55 for the certificate at the court. You don’t have to have a wedding that costs $50K. I know multiple people who literally just had some people over and got pizzas.
Some of my friends got married, and it was just people dressing nicely and meeting at our favourite restaurant to eat a bunch of delicious food. It was awesome.
Legal items aside. My wife has my back and I have hers. Having a partner in life you can trust with yours is a special thing.
It doesn’t have to even be man and woman. I know a group of older men who have a group dynamic where they are all basically each other’s partners…not sexually, just supportive.
I think the question is not questioning relationships, but asking why a marriage itself is worth anything.
You can have a lifelong partner without being married to them
Marriage? Why, it’s the greatest weapon in any noble’s arsenal! Let me enlighten you on matters of state and power.
Marriage isn’t about love; that’s a peasant’s fantasy. For those of us who bear the weight of ancient houses, marriage is statecraft of the highest order.
When I wed the second daughter of House Tyrell, I gained three castles along the Roseroad and secured my southern border against those Dornish vipers. Her father’s bannermen now answer my call; five thousand spears when winter comes.
Marriage binds blood to blood. When your wife bears your children, you’ve created heirs that unite two powerful lineages. Should some upstart lord challenge either house, they face the combined might of both.
Consider the Lannisters and their gold. A prudent marriage there secures not just coin for your depleted coffers, but access to their formidable fleet. Or perhaps the Arryns, whose impregnable Eyrie would shield your lands from eastern invaders.
Politics shifts like quicksand, but marriage creates bonds that even the most treacherous lords hesitate to break. The realm notices when sacred vows are betrayed, and remembers.
So you ask what’s the point? Power, lands, armies, legitimacy, and the future of your house. What greater purpose exists for those of us born to rule?
Now pass the wine. These matters of dynasty have made my throat dry.
Is there a Lemmy hall of fame yet?
There’s at least [email protected]
Posted!
The feminists don’t agree but historically marriage is there to protect the woman from having to raise a child alone. It is a socially and legally binding promise from the man that he won’t abandon her when she sacrifices her ability to fend for herself in order to bear children.
Tax advantages, makes managing your estate easier if one of you dies, social status, etc.
I’m generally curious why people get married beyond the “because I love them” when it costs so much money.
Getting married doesn’t have to cost virtually anything. Really just the application fee to get a marriage license. The specific price will vary by state, and even by county (within the US, not sure how it works outside). Where I live, you can go to a courthouse and get married for $35.
If you plan to have kids, there are a lot of legal reasons why it’s just a lot simpler to be married. The same applies without them, to a lesser degree, but with kids it’s just so much more of a hassle to not be married.
You’re right that you can achieve most (maybe even all?) legal benefits of marriage through trusts, wills, etc. But that’s a hell of a lot more work, and the lawyer fees, filing fees, and application fees are almost certainly going to cost you more than a cheap courthouse marriage. Not to mention the added work for yourself.
Beyond all that, though, the single biggest reason I wanted to get married and have a wedding with lots of friends and family was to stand up in front of everyone and profess my love for my (now) wife, let her do the same for me, then have big party with all our friends and family to celebrate it. There’s nothing wrong with spending money to throw a party for something you want to celebrate.
Neither my wife nor I wanted kids but we still got married. The legal aspects you touch on are pretty darned important even without kids in the picture. Health/medical reasons are another huge one. We have a friend who lived with her partner for decades, but never got married. When he fell ill and was hospitalized it was virtually impossible for her to make any decisions, tell the doctors what his wishes were, etc. All because they weren’t legally married.
I know there are certain legal situations where an official marriage changes who has certain rights, but aren’t those same rights available if you make other legally-official decisions E.G. a will or trusts, etc?
This is not the case. Marriage gives you a lot of specific rights that can be covered by other legal documents but never together and marriage will override it. This is one of the main goals for giving gay marriage is all of the legal benefits of marriage which are expansive and complete. (This is of course in the USA this is not the case in other locations.)
There was a few legal pushes to separate these legal benefits from marriage into different legal rights that can be granted piecemeal. If you are intersted I would read The Other Significant Others which talks about people who prioritize friendships over marriage and how they interact with their “other significant other” which includes the legal discussions.
Yeah. My buddy lived with his SO. They had kids together. I believe they did have plans to get married but there were financial/planning considerations. At the time, the house was in his name.
He died unexpectedly and without warning due to a previously unknown medical condition. I don’t believe he had a W&T.
The paperwork she had to deal with - much of which would have been not required had they been married - was horrendous, especially anything bank related. The bank also seemed to be doing their best to fuck her over in regards to the family home. It was a nasty ordeal.
Taxes. Health Insurance. Visa.
This guy knows. Of course you can get those another way, but marriage is the no questions asked route for most people.
Why do you think gay marriage is big news? Gays could always find ways around, but that’s the point, marriage is easier and you need to jump through hoops to get the same thing, it’s discriminatory and makes a difference between normal and not normal or acceptable ways of getting common ass rights and validations, absolutely useful for when you plan to spend more than a couple of years with someone.
Also, I think you confuse marriage with weddings, those are usually the expensive and stupid ones. Ceremonies are not required to be that stupid.
Marriage makes it easier for your spouse to get their due when you pass. If you were never married it doesn’t matter how long you were together your estranged family can still relatively easily pick your corpse clean and leave nothing for the person you actually loved.
Marriage isn’t necessary for a lot of those. A domestic partnership is a lot easier and can get you couples rights, health insurance, life insurance, and visa. Country dependent of course.
I personally don’t intend on getting married since I hate that it’s a religious practice enshrined in law. But between common law/domestic partnership, we don’t need to.
Actually, marriage is one of the founding circumstances why we actually have laws. Although it is reasonable to assume that every marriage ritual in early societies had some kind of ‘blessed be this couple’ aspect, it originated out of civil necessity (structuring inheritance) before the Jesus Club took over and changed the meaning
(structuring inheritance) before the Jesus Club took over
and then it took humanity another 2000 years to move away from inheritance in favor of composition. you’d think someone would’ve realized sooner that it’s not always the right abstraction…
That really depends on your jurisdiction. There are places where domestic partners have a different status. Mostly because of the long arm of the Catholic Church.
Two words “Accredited Investor”
Marriage wasn’t important to me, either - I was with my now husband for many years before we tied the knot. I’d never been one for the traditional big wedding, wasn’t sure what difference it would make, etc.
What changed? My Mum died - and in all the times at hospital and then dealing with the funeral etc - I realised just how important being “next of kin” actually is. In so many ways. And while you can cover most of your bases with various legal documents - honestly there’s already a super easy way, that is very well understood all over the world, that achieves this.
And while I wasn’t expecting it to feel any different afterwards, it really did - for both of us. More certainty and just really solid.
Glad you mentioned ‘next of kin.’ This is the important answer. If you’re married, you can do all that important legal stuff- make medical decisions if your partner is unconscious or indisposed, get the death certificate if that happens and give it to all the people who will need it.
Say your partner is in a car accident and you go to the hospital. There’s no marriage, no forms, no nothing to indicate you’re at all related to this person. You’re just some dude or lady, showing up at some dude or lady’s bedside. You can’t make the decisions for this person. Even if, say, they have a horrible narcissistic mother they’re estranged from- that mother, just by being the mother, can get all the authority to make decisions your unconscious partner would hate!
(Drawing from my own life. Fuck my mother.)
You can’t even call the hospital and get information on them. If they aren’t awake to indicate a release of information, the hospital can’t let you see them, can’t tell you anything.
This is just the first example that came to mind. The purpose of marriage is, it’s a legal way to indicate that you’re the most important person in the life of the person you marry. (And yes, depending on where you are and laws in your state or country or whatever, domestic partnership and other stuff can grant that, too.)
Getting married doesn’t have to cost a lot of money, if a couple chooses to spend a lot on their wedding they’re doing it for that sake, but it’s not necessary.
I got married for free. In my town you can do that on Tuesday mornings. You can even bring up to 6 guests.
Did you not need a marriage license?
I got the marriage license there. It was at the building where my local/city government resides
It took me a while to fully realise the implications of marriage. At first I thought it was about commitment and love etc. but legally you are literally taking two people and turning them into one. One, glued together, single being that can own things jointly (like a house for example).
In the eyes of the law you become one being that can do things like have a joint bank account. It’s both really handy, but also a massive risk if things go south. It has some huge implications that not everyone realises too. For example, here in the UK (might be the same elsewhere but I’m not sure) you can own a house jointly BUT if one of you becomes legally incapacitated (like having a serious stroke or something) and needs state care the state will drain YOUR assets to pay for your care costs until you only have about £15k left! (last I checked. It might be more now).
That includes FORCING you to sell your house to pay for care costs! To avoid that you literally have to change your ownership status to something called “Tenants in Common” because then you both own 50% of the house and the state can’t sell half a house so that protects you. They’re aggressive about it too so if you switch to Tenants in Common straight after the incapacitating event, they can claim “deliberate deprivation” and revert you back to joint owners.
That’s just one example of the minefield you need to be aware of. The good stuff is definitely financial though. Everything is suddenly half price for example because people tend to share 50/50 in all the costs. That’s really helpful! :)
